Curse

Seef II · Mar 31, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

I've been playing hammer recently, especially now that Anet's fixed the animations for the female warrior, and well, it's fun and good, but watching through observer mode and my own experiences suggest that hammer warriors just aren't as good as axe warriors on the attack front. Eviscerate is, well, brutal, and provides probably the strongest general spike under an IAS with powerful followups (Axe Rake to cover the DW and cause cripple; Executioner's for another potential 100+ hit; Penetrating/Swift Chop can score large hits as well). At the same time, sword warriors provide plenty of utility, with Charge and Shields Up, and can do a wtfpwn finisher with Final Thrust. Hammers just don't have those sorts of things, but yeah, they have their own strengths which sometime don't seem to match up.

Sure, they're great at shutdown, and a properly executed hammer spike on a 60 AL caster is pretty much certain death, but like warriors in general, there's lots of hate flying around. Hammer warriors might possibly be the toughest kind to play, having to manage energy and knowing when to use the KDs. Timing is everything with one of these guys. Bunny Thumpers (R/Ws with hammer skills and a pet) can be considered but they suffer from some of the same problems, though Expertise and the extra pip/emanagment from the pet helps somewhat. The damage hammers do comes in large, relatively slow packets, which means some of the problems that affect elementalists also affect hammers. The slower attack speed and lack of shield are marks against the hammer as well, coming at the opportunity cost of knockdown.

I suppose part of the difficulties come from the skill selection. Sure, to some eyes, swords got the short end of the stick in Prophecies (just listen to all the Hundred Blades whines) but hammer has even fewer usable skills. Factions doesn't do much to change things in the PvP world with the importance of spike. As said in another thread, the trend for Factions skills tends to be DPS, as evidenced by the lowcost sword and axe elites and the fast-attacking but fragile assassin, or the new ranger spirits. The anti-KD ward which will probably see lots of play is another thorn in the hammer warrior's side.

Let's consider the Prophecies skills (at 0/12/16 hammer unless noted):

Dwarven Battle Stance <e> 10\0\30 - 10% IAS, interrupts on successful hit, 3/9/11 second duration based on Strength
Sort of like an Incendiary Arrows with all the drawbacks of being a melee character. No reason to run this. IAS doesn't even help that much.

Backbreaker <e> - 4 s knockdown, +5/17/21 damage, 10a
Been seeing this one a lot recently. The 4 second knockdown can lead to some awkward attack timing synergies with or without an IAS, but the shutdown part of it's key. 10 adrenaline means that it's going to take a while to charge this up (barring Dark Fury/To The Limit) and a blackout dude's going to be a pain in the ass. Still, Backbreaker is painful and almost always worth every strike of adrenaline. My only gripe is if you miss with it.

Factions warriors won't be able to use this. Ouch.

Belly Smash - 5\1\30; 3/9/10 second blind on KD'ed and nearby foes
Useless, even in PvE. It's sort of like why you wouldn't run Throw Dirt at higher levels, the long recharge makes it suck. You won't run this... ever.

Crushing Blow - 5\0\10; +5/17/21 damage and 5/17/21 s deepwound on KD'ed foe
A good skill, probably a staple in any hammer KD spike or chain. Note that aside from Desperation Blow (which is not a PvP skill) it's the only way for a hammer warrior to inflict a deep wound - conditionally, too. A quick or precasted guardian can make this hard to land. Damage given can be over 100 but Eviscerate does the same, and Gash comes pretty close without costing energy. Factions-only hammer warriors are pretty screwed without this one.

Crude Swing - 5\0\5; +1/16/21 to all adjacent foes; easily interrupted
Bad, just bad, even in PvE. Not taken in PvP for the same reason one wouldn't run Cyclone Axe, it makes you looks pretty bad. Easily interrupted doesn't help at all, especially in PvE.

Earth Shaker <e> - 8a, KDs target foes and foes adjacent to your target
I think the skill description on this one is still wrong, it has the same AoE as Hundred Blades. Half the time you can't even chain this guy with Crude Swing (not that you'd want to) and it sees very limited use in HA on altar maps. Does no extra damage and costs an extra point of adrenaline over devastating hammer. No real reason to run this, since the chances of hitting 2+ people are slim. At least it doesn't cost 10a anymore. Oh yeah, 2/3 elite KDs aren't available to Factions-only warriors and no Crushing Blow either. If the hammer's to become popular at all this isn't the way to do it.

Core skills:

Counter Blow - 4a, KDs attacking foes
I think it's relatively safe to say that this is a PvE skill, but a handy and cheap one at that.

Devastating Hammer <e> - 7a, KD + 5/17/21 s weakness
The one KD elite available to factions players, this skill is key due to the reliance on Weakness a lot of hammer skills seem to have. Relatively cheap (hey, now one less strike less expensive than Eviscerate!) but does no extra damage. Weakness is in general a useless condition since most damage comes from the skill bonuses.

Hammer Bash - 6a, KD
Generic knockdown skill. The "lose all adrenaline" clause is probably for balance reasons. Still, the unconditional knockdown is probably not worth all your adrenaline with Bull's Strike and Shock available. This doesn't even do extra damage but is available early.

Heavy Blow - 6a, KD and +1/24/32 damage to Weakened foe
Sure, this can be comboed with Devastating Hammer but otherwise sucks, especially since you lose all adrenaline with this. I don't see Axe Twist or Bull's Strike making you lose all adrenaline. Doesn't have the punch that Final Thrust does either. What was Anet thinking? This one's conditional enough with the weakness. Sort of like Stoning, perhaps priced as if the KD will happen every time.

Irresistible Blow - 5\0\4, +1/24/32 damage if evaded or hit; 1/24/32 dmg + KD if blocked
Good skill, heavy on the energy especially if Crushing Blow is on the same bar, which it should be. Probably the only weapon stancebreaker worth it (compared to Called Shot, Seeking Blade, and Swift Chop).

Mighty Blow - 7a, +1/24/32 damage
For 7 adrenaline, which takes longer than 8 adrenaline on a sword or axe, I expect more from this skill. Power Attack might even have more DPS than this. With the two lose all adrenaline skills in the hammer line, one should be careful to expend this one first.

Staggering Blow - 6a, 5/13/16 s weakness
For 6a, this should be a lot better than it is in the current state. Sever Artery is cheaper and the Bleeding (which is arguably more harmful than Weakness) lasts for 5/17/21 seconds there. Gash, Eviscerate, and Dismember for the 5/17/21 second Deep Wound even last longer. What the hell? No one runs this, except those ettins on the way to Kryta. This skill needs rethinking.

Factions Skills (tentative, FPE numbers):

Auspicious Blow - 8a, +5/17/21 damage and +3/7/8 if target is Weakened
Like Mighty Blow, the bang for your buck isn't that great, but the energy management part of this has potential. Still, it depends on Weakness, and as horrible as Staggering Blow is on an already crowded skillbar, warriors are liable to be stuck running Devastating Hammer on their bar to get optimum usage out of this skill. DPS isn't even as good as Mighty Blow and Irresistable Blow.

Enraged Smash <e> - 2a, +5/10/11 (max 40) damage for each charged adrenal skill
People were singing praises about this one, but I don't get the point of it. A GvG hammer warrior will have 3-4 attack skills on his bar, one of them probably Irresistable Blow, the other Crushing Blow, the last Bull's Strike, and this takes the place of the KD elite (Backbreaker/Earthshaker/Devastating). It's my understanding that Enraged Smash doesn't take itself into account when calculating the bonus damage, so someone clue me in on how this is going to be useful, even for DPS and PvE purposes.

Fierce Blow - 6a, +10/34/42 damage if foe is Weakened; +5/17/21 otherwise
Possibly a good followup to Devastating in a KD chain. Under Frenzy, one could go Devastating -> Fierce -> Crushing -> Bash -> Irresistable but that's a lot of skill slots for this combo. For generic +dmg, this skill's pretty bad compared to Mighty Blow and Irresistable Blow, and depending on Weakness is strike two.

Forceful Blow <e> - 5a, +10/34/42 damage and 5/17/21 s Weakness; self-KD if evaded
This is what Staggering Blow should've been. This skill has potential, though it takes the elite slot. Choosing this over a KD elite is not going to be easy, because the weakness-dependent chain can easily be disrupted by a single mend ailment/martyr/...

Renewing Smash - 5\10\20, +5/17/21 damage and all stances recharged
Bad PvP skill, and it's shaping up to be less than mediocre in PvE as well. Frenzy has a short enough recharge, and PvE stance tanks use those wonderful things called shields. Extra damage is negligible compared to the DPS and utility of Irresistable Blow.

Yeti Smash - 7a, +5/17/21 to target; 5/41/53 to adjacent
PvE skill, though if you manage to catch another person with this in PvP, it's not that bad compared to Mighty Blow at the same cost. This skill outdoes Crude Swing in nearly every way. Still, it's not going to make its way onto a busy PvP skillbar.

Looking at the hammer skills in retrospect, it's clear that in Prophecies, they were designed to be spiky (pun not intended with respect to the war hammer) and deal lots of big damage hits and knockdowns. For Factions, the skills seem to try to make hammers more popular in PvE, maybe at the expense of PvP playability. A warrior's skillbar generally consists of Frenzy, the cancel stance, res sig, 2-4 attack skills and the rest utility (e.g., Shock). As combo-dependent as the Factions hammer skills are, and with the importance of spike in PvP, there's pretty much no reason to stray from the Prophecies/Core skills a hammer warrior. Ward of Stability may have an impact with the popularity of Shock and Bull's Strike, and that impact on hammer warriors can only be negative. The DPS oriented skills like Enraged Smash and the relatively high costs of adrenal skills don't help the case.

Of course, this part is pure speculation, since ritualists may change the battlefield dramatically (I'm not expecting the assassin to do much except feed Restore Condition) so take it with a grain of salt.

It's just that the unpopularity of the hammer warrior appears to lie in the subpar skills compared to axe and even sword, and this is quite evident as most teams will run the Eviscerate guy or the Charge sworder over a hammer warrior. The damage hammer warriors can pump out is large but evens out in the end against sword and axe; their defense is lower without a shield; the slow attack speed becomes comical (as with rangers) with Shadow of Fear or Faintheartedness active.

I'd like to see the hammer become as viable DPS as the sword (esp. with Dragon Slash coming up), or as good a spiker as the axe, as Eviscerate -> Executioner's -> Axe Rake/Penetrating has shown us. If anything, hammers try too hard to do all of this, and suffer in the end. Specialization is GW appears to be key (one runs a max of 4 attribute lines) and hammers are destined to be the jack of all trades, but not really excelling in anything, except perhaps scariness. It's as if Anet ignored one of the original intents of hammer in Factions - knockdown - and decided to put skills in the line that would better fit a sword warrior or even an axe warrior.

Edit: typos

Linkusmax · Mar 31, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

With hammers I really find you need the added dps of the pet for them to be paticularly viable, and then only really in preassure frontloaded builds, again you pair them with Sword Charge Ranger/Warrior beastmasters for maximum effect.

thor hammerbane · Mar 31, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Great article. I have been a hammer warrior since day one, and they are much more difficult to use. I still prefer using them over other weapons because of that extra skill needed;hammer warriors are the mesmers of the mage line. But i agree that they are underpowered. The factions skills open some new doors for the hammer warrior, but they open entire wearhouses for axe and sword warriors, sword especially. Not that i dont agree with dragonslash, since it pwns hundred blades.

Great Article, and GL with your travels. From one hammer wielder to the next.

wheel · Mar 31, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Waters

hammers also have a hidden 10% ar pen

No, they don't, unless you have a lot of empirical statistics to back up your claim.

Murder In China · Mar 31, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Use Frenzy (Backbreaker[E]+Crushing Blow+Irresistible Blow+Hammer Bash) = target foe sits on their ass for 6 seconds.

SaintGreg · Mar 31, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

You will typically have rush as a hammer warrior which is another adrenal skill for enraged smash, but yes it still sucks.

I find that there really isnt that much point to having crushing blow and irresistable blow together, because you don't have enough energy to use them. Thats my opinion, other people might like the utility it offers, i prefer mighty blow to one of them (depending on if your other warrior has deep wound)

Seef II · Mar 31, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I know EW runs a hammer warrior with Mighty on it, but irresistible's utility is insane and the damage, unlike Seeking Blade and Swift Chop, doesn't suck. This is why Mighty Blow needs to be +10/34/42 to justify taking it over irresistible.

Regarding crushing blow, a warrior that can't inflict a deep wound generally is a warrior that's not worth running at all. DW is key to spikes... even caster spikes with PP+SD. Unless your guild tag is [Rnub] that is.

Byron · Mar 31, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

So I was watching Treacherous Empire play today, and decided that the time is now right for Paladin's strength-hammer build to be exposed.

The 4 main attacks were:
[backbreaker][crushing blow][irresistable blow][protectors strike]

And judging from the damage on the protectors strike, his stats were set up thusly(a rough guess):

16 hammer
10 Strength
9 tactics

And for posterity, as I am an admirer of the bulid, I'm pretty sure his other skills were:
[healing signet][rush][mend ailment][res sig]
...which enabled big-time self sustainability, and thus, spilt-ability.

Since protectors strike takes only half the time of a normal attack, it's possible to heavily spike a KD target with crushing blow->protectors strike, which will deal the damage of both attacks and focus the deep wound in under a second. The inherent armor pentration also added some hurt. [Te] used it in conjunction with a final thrust swordsman for a KD adrenaline spike that put on a huge hurting, dealing well over 400 damage to a softie in under a second, with only a two-warrior spike. I was very impressed, and that's why I chose to study(and steal) the build.
This warrior could probably take in a bull's strike in substitution for protectors for some heavy KD capability. Personally, I think the strength-hammer build is very effective in PvP play, and think it may become pretty popular pretty fast.

**EDIT: Fixed the attribute values.

Vindexus · Mar 31, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

14 str
12 hammer
9 tactics

Somehow I doubt Te would run something that subpar. They're most likely runnig 16 Hammer, and either a 9/9 split or 10/8 for Tactics and Strength.

Rey Lentless · Mar 31, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

I agree completely.

Quote:

You will typically have rush as a hammer warrior which is another adrenal skill for enraged smash, but yes it still sucks.

No, it's only adrenal attack skills.. and it's only OTHER attack skills.. so you need 4 additional adrenal attack skills to max out enraged. That is +40 every other swing though, and can be every swing w/ dark fury or FGJ.. but it does make you use up your whole bar basically. I do like the concept of adding a legitimate dps option for hammer. I think an easy fix for this is.. including enraged as one of the attack skills.. and to cap it at +44 instead of 40. You'd maintain some utility by having the attacks charged and usable if needed.. and you'd have room for frenzy/sprint/rez.. and then 1 other skill. That seems like a fair price for a +44dam 2 adrenal skill.

In general, I think hammers do need to be addressed though. The dependency on weakness really needs to be removed.. or at least replaced with a more favorable condition. I believe an attack speed increase would be one of the easier and more important fixes other than that. This would tighten up spike chains, allow adrenaline to charge up faster.. and widen the DPS gap (from normal attacks) that hammers really should have compared to axes and swords.

I think something like a reduction to 1.6 cooldown would do a lot for hammers.

Legendary Battousai · Mar 31, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

with the assassin secondary, you have a teleporting instant knockdown, and righ there, is the shiznit of hammer builds, and being able to unpredictably shut someone down for 3-6 seconds can be devastating if timed right with your team

Patrograd · Mar 31, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I think that if I was looking for a character that is guaranteed to make the enemy kite and at the same time cause both maximum disruption and HUGE DPS then I think I would take a hammer warrior as they are just unparalleled in their ability to literally smash people's faces.

OK, so their ability to spike isnt anything remotely the same as an eviscerate axe guy, but for just sheer raw hurting power over time, and lets face it this is at least equally as important as spike damage, then the hammer warrior must be, IMHO the weapon of choice.

Peewee · Mar 31, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

KD= invaluable imo

suiraCLAW · Mar 31, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

The worst thing for a good monk is getting bashed on the ground. offcourse most axe spikers have shock, but shock can't hold a monk long enough on the ground to kill a monk that starts with 500hp (devastating + heavy or backbreaker does).

art_ · Mar 31, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWaters

hammers also have a hidden 10% ar pen

Hey. If this is true could you post some data on this, or a linkie

Byron · Mar 31, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Somehow I doubt Te would run something that subpar. They're most likely runnig 16 Hammer, and either a 9/9 split or 10/8 for Tactics and Strength.

I was wrong in my calculations, since I forgot that protector's strike was boosted in the latest patch. Thanks for pointing that out, and I'll edit the attributes to their proper level now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

The dependency on weakness really needs to be removed.. or at least replaced with a more favorable condition.

I have to agree there, for logic's sake. Anet has done a good job with those types of things: Axe means deep wound, sword means bleeding, and those are what I would expect of a sword or axe hit. But if I were hit by a hammer, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I feel tired now," I'd be thinking, "My insides are smashed." I'd say remove the weakness factor and replace it with either bleeding(that is, internal bleeding) or crippled(hammers break bones). Hammers already have a few big disadvantages at a much slower attack speed, high adrenaline costs, and the two-handed factor.

Quote:

I believe an attack speed increase would be one of the easier and more important fixes other than that.

I don't think that would do good for the game, personally. The balance is pretty much even, except for that one blasted skill: Eviscerate. A spammable energy-based hammer IAS would be nice though, as Dwarven Battle Stance is utter crap. That skill isn't worth taking even if it wasn't elite, IMHO. I don't think "Tiger Stance" in the factions skill upgrade is good enough to apply to hammers, nor to replace frenzy.

A combo I haven't seen often is Flourish/Bull's strike. On a hammer warrior, even though lacking an KD elite, flourish can recharge a bunch of skills, as well as solve the warrior's energy woes. It has some spam capability at 10 sec recharge, which means you can continue to use it. This would also allow big KD capability with a quickly recharged Bull's strike. It would be efficient, but not as powerful as a typical frenzy hammer. I'll try this build and re-post on my findings soon.

[bulls' strike][Irresistable blow][crushing blow][protector's strike][Flourish][rush][Frenzy][res sig]

The possibilities seem tantalizing. Frenzy->Bulls->Crushing->Irresistable->protector's->Flourish->rush->bulls->Frenzy->Crushing->Iresistable->protectors. Repeat until dead.

Rey Lentless · Mar 31, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Flourish would be ok if it was a shout and not 'cast'.

Quote:

I don't think that would do good for the game, personally. The balance is pretty much even, except for that one blasted skill: Eviscerate.

No, it really isn't just that. The attack skills available to swords and axes, beyond just eviscerate.. add much more damage and are used more often. Any buffs benefit axes and swords more, and since hammer's attack so much slower.. the spiking is much more limited. While that's all seemingly justified by knockdowns.. this is the only redeaming quality hammers possess. Axes and swords have better conditions, more damage, helped more by buffs.. and spike better.

Increasing the speed in which hammers attack would even out the DPS (which hammers should be superior at.. considering their slowers spikes and loss of a shield). Knockdowns, while still powerful.. are going to be less powerful in factions.

Patrograd · Mar 31, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Increasing the speed in which hammers attack would even out the DPS (which hammers should be superior at.. considering their slowers spikes and loss of a shield). .

IN another thread, Ensign wrote

Quote:

Sword: 34.12 damage per hit, 25.59 damage per second, 1536 damage per minute; 38.39 damage per second, 2303 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit, 26.66 damage per second, 1600 damage per minute; 40 damage per second, 2400 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit, 29.35 damage per second, 1761 damage per minute; 44.02 damage per second, 2641 damage per minute while under Frenzy

if these numbers are correct, and I am sure they are, then increasing the rate of hammer attacks would be extremely unbalancing IMO

Rey Lentless · Mar 31, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

It's a 10% increase in DPS w/ regular swinging. The superior and more often charged attack skills from axes and swords overcomes this 10%. Any buffs would again be in favor of axes and swords, as is spiking.

Should dps on axes and swords be better than hammers? I think not. Hammers should do more damage than axes and swords, not just.. enough more to make up for the lesser damage skills to break even.

10% doesn't do hammers justice, but I believe 20% would.. (which is what 1.6 cooldown would be).

Vindexus · Mar 31, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Hammers are balanced very well compared to Sword and Axe. In fact, of all the interprofession attribute balancing Warrior is probably the best. Look at Monk, smiting sucks. Look at Ele, fire sucks. Necro, death sucks. But for Warrior you can chose between Hammer, Sword and Axe and all will serve you well. I really see no reason for Hammer to have any drastic changes, maybe just buff Mighty Blow and Staggering Blow.